Get rid of annotations and j.remote 3rd outlet?

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Get rid of annotations and j.remote 3rd outlet?

Trond Lossius
Administrator
Hi,

At some point while we were still using Max 6 and Jamoma 0.5 Nils added a feature that would pass the content of the jcom.parameter @documentation attribute to the @annotation attribute of the GUI object that jcom.parameter was connected to. This made the description show up in the Status Bar in Max 6. For Jamoma 0.6 this has been updated so that j.remote now does the same thing.

However, in Max 7 the status bar has been removed, and the annotation attribute is now only used if you keep the Clue window open, My guess is that none of us ever use the clue window. At some point David Z explained why the status bar was removed:

> The status bar was eliminated in Max 7 because, contrary to your perception that it would help new users, it actually bombards them with text. Watch a few of our usability tests and you’d see this very quickly. It probably helps advanced users a little bit, but on balance it was usually saying things that were obvious.

My question then is: Does it still make sense to send the annotation information from the j.remote object to the GUI object? If the answer to this is NO, then maybe we could get rid of the third outlet from j.remote?

IMHO there’s already a degree of inconsistency in our implementation as j.send and j.receive do not pass any annotation info to their related GUI objects.

Best,
Trond
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Re: Get rid of annotations and j.remote 3rd outlet?

jln
Administrator
Hi,

I thought that annotation was set through the left-most outlet and that third outlet was used for a kind of highlight state of UI objects. Does this highlight stuff still work ? I must say I never used it myself (although I know Mathieu did at some point). So no strong opinion about it.

Regarding annotation, assuming it is/can be sent through the left-most outlet, I see no reason not to offer this feature. Actually, even more handy would be to set the hint attribute (I thought this already was the case, but I guess I did this by hand in some of my patches).

My 2 cents…

Best,
Julien




On dimanche, avr. 5, 2015 at 2:59 PM, Trond Lossius <[hidden email]>, wrote:
Hi,

At some point while we were still using Max 6 and Jamoma 0.5 Nils added a feature that would pass the content of the jcom.parameter @documentation attribute to the @annotation attribute of the GUI object that jcom.parameter was connected to. This made the description show up in the Status Bar in Max 6. For Jamoma 0.6 this has been updated so that j.remote now does the same thing.

However, in Max 7 the status bar has been removed, and the annotation attribute is now only used if you keep the Clue window open, My guess is that none of us ever use the clue window. At some point David Z explained why the status bar was removed:

> The status bar was eliminated in Max 7 because, contrary to your perception that it would help new users, it actually bombards them with text. Watch a few of our usability tests and you’d see this very quickly. It probably helps advanced users a little bit, but on balance it was usually saying things that were obvious.

My question then is: Does it still make sense to send the annotation information from the j.remote object to the GUI object? If the answer to this is NO, then maybe we could get rid of the third outlet from j.remote?

IMHO there’s already a degree of inconsistency in our implementation as j.send and j.receive do not pass any annotation info to their related GUI objects.

Best,
Trond
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Re: Get rid of annotations and j.remote 3rd outlet?

Nils Peters
Hi Trond,

I think Julien is right here, AFAIR the annotation is sent to the
connected UI object via the leftmost outlet.
I think having the annotation in the clue window may help users that are
not familiar with a specific Jamoma module to get up and running.
On the other side, pro users like you probably disable the clue window
completely and consequently won't get distracted by the annotation text.

Regarding the removal of the third outlet, I don't have a strong opinion.

cheers,
Nils



On 2015-04-05 1:10 PM, Julien Rabin wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I thought that annotation was set through the left-most outlet and that
> third outlet was used for a kind of highlight state of UI objects. Does
> this highlight stuff still work ? I must say I never used it myself
> (although I know Mathieu did at some point). So no strong opinion about it.
>
> Regarding annotation, assuming it is/can be sent through the left-most
> outlet, I see no reason not to offer this feature. Actually, even more
> handy would be to set the hint attribute (I thought this already was the
> case, but I guess I did this by hand in some of my patches).
>
> My 2 cents…
>
> Best,
> Julien
>
>
>
>
> On dimanche, avr. 5, 2015 at 2:59 PM, Trond Lossius
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>, wrote:
>
>     Hi,
>
>     At some point while we were still using Max 6 and Jamoma 0.5 Nils
>     added a feature that would pass the content of the jcom.parameter
>     @documentation attribute to the @annotation attribute of the GUI
>     object that jcom.parameter was connected to. This made the
>     description show up in the Status Bar in Max 6. For Jamoma 0.6 this
>     has been updated so that j.remote now does the same thing.
>
>     However, in Max 7 the status bar has been removed, and the
>     annotation attribute is now only used if you keep the Clue window
>     open, My guess is that none of us ever use the clue window. At some
>     point David Z explained why the status bar was removed:
>
>     > The status bar was eliminated in Max 7 because, contrary to your perception that it would help new users, it actually bombards them with text. Watch a few of our usability tests and you’d see this very quickly. It probably helps advanced users a little bit, but on balance it was usually saying things that were obvious.
>
>     My question then is: Does it still make sense to send the annotation
>     information from the j.remote object to the GUI object? If the
>     answer to this is NO, then maybe we could get rid of the third
>     outlet from j.remote?
>
>     IMHO there’s already a degree of inconsistency in our implementation
>     as j.send and j.receive do not pass any annotation info to their
>     related GUI objects.
>
>     Best,
>     Trond
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>     things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership
>     blogs to
>     news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join
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>     conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
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> things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
> news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
> conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
>
>
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Re: Get rid of annotations and j.remote 3rd outlet?

Trond Lossius
Administrator
Hi,

By default the annotation is sent out the leftmost outlet of j.remote. However, if other objects are needed in-between j.remote and the GUI widget, the 3rd outlet can be connected to the GUI widget, and will then pass the annotation.

It seems to me that the conclusion is to leave annotations as is.

As for also passing this information to the hint attribute, I’m not sure if that’s a good idea. That will have small yellow hints popping up all over the place as one’s interacting with views.

Best,
Trond



> On 06 Apr 2015, at 05:03, Nils Peters <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Trond,
>
> I think Julien is right here, AFAIR the annotation is sent to the
> connected UI object via the leftmost outlet.
> I think having the annotation in the clue window may help users that are
> not familiar with a specific Jamoma module to get up and running.
> On the other side, pro users like you probably disable the clue window
> completely and consequently won't get distracted by the annotation text.
>
> Regarding the removal of the third outlet, I don't have a strong opinion.
>
> cheers,
> Nils
>
>
>
> On 2015-04-05 1:10 PM, Julien Rabin wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I thought that annotation was set through the left-most outlet and that
>> third outlet was used for a kind of highlight state of UI objects. Does
>> this highlight stuff still work ? I must say I never used it myself
>> (although I know Mathieu did at some point). So no strong opinion about it.
>>
>> Regarding annotation, assuming it is/can be sent through the left-most
>> outlet, I see no reason not to offer this feature. Actually, even more
>> handy would be to set the hint attribute (I thought this already was the
>> case, but I guess I did this by hand in some of my patches).
>>
>> My 2 cents…
>>
>> Best,
>> Julien
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On dimanche, avr. 5, 2015 at 2:59 PM, Trond Lossius
>> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>, wrote:
>>
>>    Hi,
>>
>>    At some point while we were still using Max 6 and Jamoma 0.5 Nils
>>    added a feature that would pass the content of the jcom.parameter
>>    @documentation attribute to the @annotation attribute of the GUI
>>    object that jcom.parameter was connected to. This made the
>>    description show up in the Status Bar in Max 6. For Jamoma 0.6 this
>>    has been updated so that j.remote now does the same thing.
>>
>>    However, in Max 7 the status bar has been removed, and the
>>    annotation attribute is now only used if you keep the Clue window
>>    open, My guess is that none of us ever use the clue window. At some
>>    point David Z explained why the status bar was removed:
>>
>>> The status bar was eliminated in Max 7 because, contrary to your perception that it would help new users, it actually bombards them with text. Watch a few of our usability tests and you’d see this very quickly. It probably helps advanced users a little bit, but on balance it was usually saying things that were obvious.
>>
>>    My question then is: Does it still make sense to send the annotation
>>    information from the j.remote object to the GUI object? If the
>>    answer to this is NO, then maybe we could get rid of the third
>>    outlet from j.remote?
>>
>>    IMHO there’s already a degree of inconsistency in our implementation
>>    as j.send and j.receive do not pass any annotation info to their
>>    related GUI objects.
>>
>>    Best,
>>    Trond
>>    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>    sponsored
>>    by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
>>    hub for all
>>    things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership
>>    blogs to
>>    news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join
>>    the
>>    conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
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>> things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
>> news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
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Re: Get rid of annotations and j.remote 3rd outlet?

jln
Administrator
Hi,

Ah ok. Thanks for the reminder regarding that 3d outlet.

Regarding hints, the delay before the hint appear seems long enough so it does not bother me when using the view. So as it works now, that sounds fine to me. But YMMV.

Best,
Julien




On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:12 AM, Trond Lossius <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

By default the annotation is sent out the leftmost outlet of j.remote. However, if other objects are needed in-between j.remote and the GUI widget, the 3rd outlet can be connected to the GUI widget, and will then pass the annotation.

It seems to me that the conclusion is to leave annotations as is.

As for also passing this information to the hint attribute, I’m not sure if that’s a good idea. That will have small yellow hints popping up all over the place as one’s interacting with views.

Best,
Trond



> On 06 Apr 2015, at 05:03, Nils Peters <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Trond,
>
> I think Julien is right here, AFAIR the annotation is sent to the
> connected UI object via the leftmost outlet.
> I think having the annotation in the clue window may help users that are
> not familiar with a specific Jamoma module to get up and running.
> On the other side, pro users like you probably disable the clue window
> completely and consequently won't get distracted by the annotation text.
>
> Regarding the removal of the third outlet, I don't have a strong opinion.
>
> cheers,
> Nils
>
>
>
> On 2015-04-05 1:10 PM, Julien Rabin wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I thought that annotation was set through the left-most outlet and that
>> third outlet was used for a kind of highlight state of UI objects. Does
>> this highlight stuff still work ? I must say I never used it myself
>> (although I know Mathieu did at some point). So no strong opinion about it.
>>
>> Regarding annotation, assuming it is/can be sent through the left-most
>> outlet, I see no reason not to offer this feature. Actually, even more
>> handy would be to set the hint attribute (I thought this already was the
>> case, but I guess I did this by hand in some of my patches).
>>
>> My 2 cents…
>>
>> Best,
>> Julien
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On dimanche, avr. 5, 2015 at 2:59 PM, Trond Lossius
>> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>, wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> At some point while we were still using Max 6 and Jamoma 0.5 Nils
>> added a feature that would pass the content of the jcom.parameter
>> @documentation attribute to the @annotation attribute of the GUI
>> object that jcom.parameter was connected to. This made the
>> description show up in the Status Bar in Max 6. For Jamoma 0.6 this
>> has been updated so that j.remote now does the same thing.
>>
>> However, in Max 7 the status bar has been removed, and the
>> annotation attribute is now only used if you keep the Clue window
>> open, My guess is that none of us ever use the clue window. At some
>> point David Z explained why the status bar was removed:
>>
>>> The status bar was eliminated in Max 7 because, contrary to your perception that it would help new users, it actually bombards them with text. Watch a few of our usability tests and you’d see this very quickly. It probably helps advanced users a little bit, but on balance it was usually saying things that were obvious.
>>
>> My question then is: Does it still make sense to send the annotation
>> information from the j.remote object to the GUI object? If the
>> answer to this is NO, then maybe we could get rid of the third
>> outlet from j.remote?
>>
>> IMHO there’s already a degree of inconsistency in our implementation
>> as j.send and j.receive do not pass any annotation info to their
>> related GUI objects.
>>
>> Best,
>> Trond
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website,
>> sponsored
>> by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
>> hub for all
>> things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership
>> blogs to
>> news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join
>> the
>> conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Jamoma-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jamoma-devel
>>
>>
>>
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>> by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all
>> things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
>> news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
>> conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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Re: Get rid of annotations and j.remote 3rd outlet?

Trond Lossius
Administrator
Hi Julien,

> Regarding hints, the delay before the hint appear seems long enough so it does not bother me when using the view. So as it works now, that sounds fine to me. But YMMV.

AFAIK we are not making use of hints in any of our views currently, and j.remote does not set the hint attribute. As the below patch illustrates, it might take a while before the first hint is showing up, but if you then move your mouse over one of the other objects, the hint is there instantly. I’m concerned that this become an annoyance if we use hints in views?

Best,
Trond

<pre><code>
----------begin_max5_patcher----------
239.3oc0O1jaCBCDEds8ovZVSinAD4mqRTTkArBNBrQlwQDEk6dsGGRU2SWz
Mi06Mddy78fyfZ6rZBDGEmDL1CNiQVQC1KMCFjyM8xI5aPsGQqAxRs5zFjra
6Z6VLGkXSnwkubpFLkcQY4l7Lw1C6hOkuqhyulw5wdEh2GUoAfZo4B7tstk1
hs95G6WViwOnMggn65yeLSQ8K2I7dOEL.Qimbdrj8mh71C4qExU+WPtnZsPt
b0PlRGjii2TtIc.pH0QlCDe05hxcYjTaRxbR5T2zK+ufbjt.vXfVuKsl4pzY
BC1Vky30z0via9I+ajaLGy.
-----------end_max5_patcher-----------
</code></pre>


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Re: Get rid of annotations and j.remote 3rd outlet?

jln
Administrator
Hi,

On lundi, avr. 6, 2015 at 8:43 PM, Trond Lossius <[hidden email]>, wrote:
AFAIK we are not making use of hints in any of our views currently,
The only example I know of is the mapper model which set input and output parameters adresses as hint in case the textfield is too small to display the full address.  
As the below patch illustrates, it might take a while before the first hint is showing up, but if you then move your mouse over one of the other objects, the hint is there instantly. I’m concerned that this become an annoyance if we use hints in views?
I did not notice this working. I actually find it rather clever ! On normal mousing/interaction hints are not there, unless you start hovering for hints. Hence I’d be rather for having this feature in our views.

But that’s something I probably need to test. If this keeps blinking, this will surely make me very nervous as well.

Best,
Julien

Best,
Trond

<pre><code>
----------begin_max5_patcher----------
239.3oc0O1jaCBCDEds8ovZVSinAD4mqRTTkArBNBrQlwQDEk6dsGGRU2SWz
Mi06Mddy78fyfZ6rZBDGEmDL1CNiQVQC1KMCFjyM8xI5aPsGQqAxRs5zFjra
6Z6VLGkXSnwkubpFLkcQY4l7Lw1C6hOkuqhyulw5wdEh2GUoAfZo4B7tstk1
hs95G6WViwOnMggn65yeLSQ8K2I7dOEL.Qimbdrj8mh71C4qExU+WPtnZsPt
b0PlRGjii2TtIc.pH0QlCDe05hxcYjTaRxbR5T2zK+ufbjt.vXfVuKsl4pzY
BC1Vky30z0via9I+ajaLGy.
-----------end_max5_patcher-----------
</code></pre>


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Re: Get rid of annotations and j.remote 3rd outlet?

Trond Lossius
Administrator
Hi,

> On 07 Apr 2015, at 22:07, Julien Rabin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On lundi, avr. 6, 2015 at 8:43 PM, Trond Lossius <[hidden email]>, wrote:
> AFAIK we are not making use of hints in any of our views currently,
> The only example I know of is the mapper model which set input and output parameters adresses as hint in case the textfield is too small to display the full address.  
> As the below patch illustrates, it might take a while before the first hint is showing up, but if you then move your mouse over one of the other objects, the hint is there instantly. I’m concerned that this become an annoyance if we use hints in views?
> I did not notice this working. I actually find it rather clever ! On normal mousing/interaction hints are not there, unless you start hovering for hints. Hence I’d be rather for having this feature in our views.
>
> But that’s something I probably need to test. If this keeps blinking, this will surely make me very nervous as well.

One thing that we could do would be to make this feature on an alternative branch, so that it could be tested and evaluated, and depending on how we feel, it might or might not be merged back into dev.

I’ll make a ticket for this.

Best,
Trond
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Re: Get rid of annotations and j.remote 3rd outlet?

Trond Lossius
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This is now #829

https://github.com/jamoma/JamomaMax/issues/829

Best,
Trond


> On 08 Apr 2015, at 09:11, Trond Lossius <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>> On 07 Apr 2015, at 22:07, Julien Rabin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On lundi, avr. 6, 2015 at 8:43 PM, Trond Lossius <[hidden email]>, wrote:
>> AFAIK we are not making use of hints in any of our views currently,
>> The only example I know of is the mapper model which set input and output parameters adresses as hint in case the textfield is too small to display the full address.  
>> As the below patch illustrates, it might take a while before the first hint is showing up, but if you then move your mouse over one of the other objects, the hint is there instantly. I’m concerned that this become an annoyance if we use hints in views?
>> I did not notice this working. I actually find it rather clever ! On normal mousing/interaction hints are not there, unless you start hovering for hints. Hence I’d be rather for having this feature in our views.
>>
>> But that’s something I probably need to test. If this keeps blinking, this will surely make me very nervous as well.
>
> One thing that we could do would be to make this feature on an alternative branch, so that it could be tested and evaluated, and depending on how we feel, it might or might not be merged back into dev.
>
> I’ll make a ticket for this.
>
> Best,
> Trond
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> Develop your own process in accordance with the BPMN 2 standard
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> http://www.bonitasoft.com/be-part-of-it/events/bpm-camp-virtual- event?utm_
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Re: Get rid of annotations and j.remote 3rd outlet?

jln
Administrator
In reply to this post by Trond Lossius
Hi Trond,

Great ! Thanks.

Best,
Julien




On mercredi, avr. 8, 2015 at 9:11 AM, Trond Lossius <[hidden email]>, wrote:
Hi,

> On 07 Apr 2015, at 22:07, Julien Rabin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On lundi, avr. 6, 2015 at 8:43 PM, Trond Lossius <[hidden email]>, wrote:
> AFAIK we are not making use of hints in any of our views currently,
> The only example I know of is the mapper model which set input and output parameters adresses as hint in case the textfield is too small to display the full address.
> As the below patch illustrates, it might take a while before the first hint is showing up, but if you then move your mouse over one of the other objects, the hint is there instantly. I’m concerned that this become an annoyance if we use hints in views?
> I did not notice this working. I actually find it rather clever ! On normal mousing/interaction hints are not there, unless you start hovering for hints. Hence I’d be rather for having this feature in our views.
>
> But that’s something I probably need to test. If this keeps blinking, this will surely make me very nervous as well.

One thing that we could do would be to make this feature on an alternative branch, so that it could be tested and evaluated, and depending on how we feel, it might or might not be merged back into dev.

I’ll make a ticket for this.

Best,
Trond
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BPM Camp - Free Virtual Workshop May 6th at 10am PDT/1PM EDT
Develop your own process in accordance with the BPMN 2 standard
Learn Process modeling best practices with Bonita BPM through live exercises
http://www.bonitasoft.com/be-part-of-it/events/bpm-camp-virtual- event?utm_
source=Sourceforge_BPM_Camp_5_6_15&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=VA_SF
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http://www.bonitasoft.com/be-part-of-it/events/bpm-camp-virtual- event?utm_
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